Bogus Magus Asks...

BM:
Are we now assuming that Bob is an initiated Mason, or can we allow that he is a creative writer who does thorough research and then applies his imagination?

And if that seemed sufficient for him, can you see any need to really act it out?

Not being sarcastic - just curious...

I am aware that 'imagining tripping' might not be enough...even if people who have tripped can't always explain quite what they experienced or why they thought it an important event...

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JG:
wow...you got me...great point bogus
I don't know...the tripping analogy is really good too...is it just curiosity or ego or will to power? I was going to say I just want to KNOW, but maybe the better word is EXPERIENCE. I want to experience the rituals for myself...and draw my own conclusions and inferences from them...Study and reading and meditation are effective for cultivating the spirit of masonry in my everyday life...but maybe I want the shared experience, the common reference point in reality tunnels with other seekers.

I don't know if RAW would say if he is a mason...the masons I most admire don't advertise it...and don't need to. RAW's writings and the spirit of questioning without seeking conclusion he seems to possess inpsire me to live masonically whether or not I ever get accepted into a lodge

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BM:
h I agree that you should have the experience if you want it - I took acid way back when because I wanted to 'know' (or even just to experience my OWN confusion, rather than merely read about other people's reported experiences).

And I have a MYOB attitude to who 'is' a Mason, or 'is' gay, or owes a lot of money (or anything private). After all, in the E-Prime world I can only ask whether Bob 'has been through masonic initiations'.

That leaves it open as to whether the people running the rituals knew what they were doing (were entitled and part of a valid tradition) and also whether the initiate was doing it out of curiosity or some 'genuine' quest. And whether those binding oaths had any lasting effect, or can be shrugged off when you no longer believe (I have noticed that, for instance, those binding marriage oaths - 'till death do us part' seem to have lost their power, in the modern world).

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JG:
That depends on what your definition of Is is...

Hard to break myself of the is habit...seems easier to slap a label on everything so I don't have to analyze too deeply and can make quicker decisions. But the MYOB attitude is my own as well...a friend of mine told me he had faced some stiff resistance in our lodge when he married his partner. he didn't announce it or anything, but the same guys I had trouble with were always asking if he'd met any hot girls or offering to take him out for drinks and hunting. So he was forced to bite his tongue until he went through his initiation, and even now is carefulabout who he talks to in lodge...This really takes away from the spirit I was seeking in masonry, tolerance & the brotherhood of all men should include radicals, men who love men and women too if you ask me...But I'll have to learn to keep it shut and conform in outward appearance and manner if I want to experience a ritual.

That brings me to a point you raised...
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That leaves it open as to whether the people running the rituals knew what they were doing (were entitled and part of a valid tradition) and also whether the initiate was doing it out of curiosity or some 'genuine' quest


Are men who claim to be masons, yet ignore the principles which masonry would seem to be built upon, qualified to give degrees...It would seem a requisite for giving degrees would be an understanding of them and the message they carry...If one is unable to translate that message into something personally meaningful and then put that into action in their lives what kind of mason are they? And how can they pass what doesn't exist on to anyone else, regardless of whether they have a valid "connection" to the craft.

BTW...I dropped acid last saturday and read degree rituals and masonry books for 36 hours straight without sleeping...maybe that's part of the problem...
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